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The article is completely self-defeating and unintentionally funny.

"Look at this remarkably fugly downgrade. Here's why The Science says it's superior."


> Once again - this is a feature not a bug

Are you really "once again"ing Patrick Collison on the issue of how payments work?


I'm fully cognizant that pc understands how payments work, hence why I'm asking the question. What you can infer is this - there is either some I'm missing, or there is some ulterior motive here.


I don't know who pc is, and he mentioned speed as a benefit without addressing the fraud / abuse implications. It's pretty reasonable to flag the gap.


Patrick Collison, the CEO & co-founder of stripe. His profile mentions his personal website: http://patrickcollison.com.


Many skeptics assume that stablecoins are just about regulatory arbitrage.

That's part of it, but:

1. Progress often depends on evolving obsolete regulation.

Uber works much better than taxis (once upon a time, people could "call a dispatcher" an hour in advance, wait on hold, etc) and yet in the early years they had to work around taxi regs.

2. Blockchains are a fundamentally more robust way to run a ledger.

If any of you have ever written software touching tradfi custody you'll know about "reconciliation"--start of every business day, you get a dump of files in your FTP server in various proprietary formats. You parse the transactions and they don't add up. The Recon team hand-corrects and recategorizes edge cases so that the balance deltas match transaction totals and everything ties out.

This type of absurd duct tape is ubiquitous, and it's a major reason why trad rails have multi-day settlement times and even longer for international. Inflates team size and cost required to run a product. SWIFT is a messaging system -- bankers use it to essentially text each other about wires to figure out issue resolution. Some lower-level trad payments regulations are written assuming that this level of manual oversight is required to prevent ledgering errors and ensure sound accounting.

Stablecoins run on transparent, precise ledgers with machine consensus. This doesn't solve everything, but there are large categories of issues that can occur in trad payments that do not exist onchain.

3. Control is liability.

Some important regulations actually encourage blockchain-based payments. For example, money transmitter law places significant requirements on custodial money transmitters (you take money from Alice, with a promise to give it to Bob) that do not apply to noncustodial channels (you give Alice a mechanism to send directly to Bob).


I wonder if some of the non-robustness of the tradfi system is a feature, not a bug. If my account tries to send someone $3 million, I'd prefer that it's intermediated by a confused bank employee staring at a screen rather than a beautifully efficient, irreversible machine consensus. The bottlenecks and intermediaries create friction, sure, but that isn't per se bad.

My hang-up with crypto is that it solves the ledger-keeping part of running a financial system, but it isn't clear that's actually the hard part! Preventing and remediating fraud, money laundering, etc. are, and crypto makes those issues worse, not better.


> If my account tries to send someone $3 million, I'd prefer that it's intermediated by a confused bank employee staring at a screen

This is a nice lens for looking at when stablecoins make sense.

If you're an American using your Chase account to buy coffee at Starbucks, the permissioned, heuristically fraud-checked, slow-settling tradfi system is well optimized for you.

If you are an importer buying $3m worth of bulk coffee from Kenya, you would much rather have an instant 1:1 USD transfer on beautifully efficient machine consensus.

In many countries in the world, the banking system is extractive and unreliable. The "confused employee" is not there to help you. The two weeks of money in transit is no benefit, just a source of additional counterparty risk, cost, and delay.

An immutable and transparent ledger is not for everything but it is a useful primitive.


> Uber works much better than taxis (once upon a time, people could "call a dispatcher" an hour in advance, wait on hold, etc)

Uber rides ARE taxis.

The innovation of Uber wasn't done by Uber it was done by everyone having a GPS enabled always connected phone and computing device in their hand at all times.


Uber isn't just taxis - if a bunch of taxi companies just got together and developed a taxi ordering app that looks just like Uber, it still won't be Uber.

Uber is a whole bunch of things combined:

- very intuitive taxi ordering UX (for riders) and dispatching UX (for drivers).

- circumventing regulation so there are no more artificial limits on taxi supply in a given city.

- enabling gig economy: because you can use your own personal vehicle, you can work anytime you want for however long you want. You don't need to lease a taxi for an entire week or an entire month. You can choose to work for 4 hours on a weekend only during surge times if you wanted to. So it allows supply to be elastic to meet demand while also offering flexible work arrangements for part-time drivers.


> The problem with all that, is the fact it remains possible to create a protocol with N big institutions [...] This maintains many benefits of the blockchain and lacks many issues (fast, simple, near zero cost)

That's more or less exactly what this is. Stripe is launching an EVM L1.

The Ethereum Virtual Machine part gives it a mature tech stack with experienced developers and auditors. Plus, well-tested smart contracts that have already processed billions of dollars on other chains can be deployed on Tempo.

The "Stripe L1" part will ensure that it's fast, simple, near zero cost.


I don’t get it yet.

If we skipped the whole blockchain part, wouldn’t it be faster, simpler, cheaper? What value does the whole blockchain, EVM, L1 offer? Don’t they fully control the network? Don’t they decide “everything” anyway?

I’d love to understand it, I’m not a hater, just a developer who don’t quite get this announcement.


They say it's permissionless.

That can mean different things.

It can mean anyone can use it without needing to sign up.

It can also mean anyone can host a node, i.e. become part of the network, without needing to ask anyone for permission.

The question is how far they went with that and why people wouldn't use another L1 that offers similar features without having Stripe looming over it.


good questions - and your questions are, or could be, actually rhetorical. Yes, they are the validator and thus they control the transactions. It could be as simple as having a Database at the end ... Well I can think of two things:

1- they start by owning all validators, maybe they expect to open validators to other entities at some point in the future. If these entities don't collude together, we could expect some sort of neutrality

2- Marketing - because crypto is coming at an ATH and why not getting some good marketing for free (or almost)

And people mentioning costs, this is not particularly relevant. L2s are extremely cheap by most standards, let alone by Stripe standards which charge horrendous fees.


My questions were not rhetorical. I’m actually interested in the space (fintech, web3, blockchain, etc), but in this space particularly, it’s hard to discern marketing gimmick from use cases where these technologies actually provide real value, so I’m being critical of these announcements while at the same time keeping an open mind.


There has been a huge amount of tooling and programs written for EVM that you instantly have access to


WhatsApp is end-to-end-to-server encryption.

They have a nicely implemented E2E protocol. This is operationally convenient: Meta can accurately say that they don't store WhatsApp messages, so fewer access requests go to them. And I'm sure it's nice for engineer morale, too.

However, the app makes it semi-mandatory to turn on backups. If you say no, it keeps nagging you. If you always say no, you are in the 0.1% and everyone you talk to has backups enabled, so all of your conversations are helpfully backed up anyway, just not for you :)

These backups go to Google Drive or iCloud. You can draw your own conclusions about who has access and who handles the LE/IC requests.


I bet this correlation goes away if you separate the data by ethnicity.


Yeah Chen, Cho, and Cohen are up there and would bias results.


Wang, Zhao, Xi.


The EFF said it best:

> Just because there’s a serious problem doesn’t mean that every response is a good one

Problem: a forum full of misanthropes dedicated to saying the worst things allowed under the first amendment.

Bad solution: erode 1A at the case law level

Bad solution: censor the internet at the backbone level

Freedom isn't free. We're lucky to live in country with robust speech protections. The tradeoff is that there will always be some people who get a kick out of going right to edge of what they can get away. My view is that our civil liberties are worth it.


And speaking of user-hostile, locked-down phones...

a galactic irony that Ben Wiser, the Googler who posted this proposal, has a blog where his most recent post is a rant about how he's being unfairly restricted and can't freely run the software he wants on his own device.

https://benwiser.com/blog/I-just-spent-%C2%A3700-to-have-my-...

https://github.com/RupertBenWiser/Web-Environment-Integrity


It's not clear when his most recent post is; the server says "Last-Modified: Wed, 26 Jul 2023 06:00:31 GMT" but I believe I saw references to this post before that in the current discussion.

(What's with the trend of completely omitting any dates on a blog?)


> (What's with the trend of completely omitting any dates on a blog?)

I hate it so, so much. But it's been a thing for at least 5 or so years.


In uni the mantra from the professors was "put a date and version on everything you write for others".

Students still forgot in the first year but got heavily marked down for it. It quickly got etched into your brain to date and version just about anything you did.

Today when I see an undated blog entry it seriously affects my perception of the writers integrity.


> Today when I see an undated blog entry it seriously affects my perception of the writers integrity.

Yes, but you see it. The canonical reasoning I've heard for missing dates is that it avoids SEO penalties for old content.


Hooray for SEO once again enriching our experience!

I await the realisation of the Hitchhiker's guide's remedy for the Marketing department...


Can SEO algos read it if you put the date in an image?


I'm sure they could, but it's probably not efficient at web scale, so I'd hazard "No."


the RSS feed says 2022-03-04 fwiw:

    <item>
      <title>I just spent £700 to have my own app on my iPhone</title>
      <link>
        https://benwiser.com/blog/I-just-spent-£700-to-have-my-own-app-on-my-iPhone.html
      </link>
      <pubDate>2022-03-04T11:30:34.067Z</pubDate>
    </item>


That's when it was submitted to HN:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30553448 (5 comments)


I hate that trend as well, especially if the post is meant to be instructional. Bonus points if they don't include version numbers as well.

I think it's so that your blog does not run into the risk of looking inactive when you might stop posting for a while.


I can't stand it. Slightly more than I can't stand old articles that show in recent searches because "last updated July 26th."


Inversely, I hate trying to search for old articles and being unable to find them because something about the websites metadata says a blog from 2004 is from 2018. It makes Google's time window search (and general, research for contemporary views) almost impossible.


Haha, that’s incredible.


Not the same thing. Attestation doesn't mean you can't run software you want on your own phone, which Android allows despite having build attestation APIs.


> Attestation doesn't mean you can't run software you want on your own phone,

I couldn't run my bank's app on an up to date and security patched lineageOS ROM Thanks to safetynet, even trying the hack around approaches.

They'd happily accept the out of date, CVE riddled official ROM however as it had the "popes blessing" from Google.


It means you can, but may then be ostracised from services for having an "unsupported" environment, which is in many ways even worse because it's leveraging peer pressure.


Not the same thing. Still close enough to trigger irony detectors.


It means there's enough software I can't run that its a problem for me. Banking apps, for example.


It is my understanding that attestation could be used to control which software is running on the client's computer prior to granting access to a web service, yes?

Otherwise, what would the point be of using to, say, protect DRM content on a webpage if I can just attach a debugger to the process in question?

Is this not how WEI works?


One simple reason - separate from the less fun possibilities involving defense procurement politics - is that the F117 was a transition technology.

It proved that super low radar signatures were possible.

The design used those big low poly triangles not because it’s optimal (aerodynamically, very much not!) but because of the limits of computer simulation at the time.

There’s a whole fascinating story about how the theory behind low observable was developed by a Soviet scientist, published, ignored there, then implemented here.

But computer technology quickly advanced to where low-poly aircraft made airworthy by brute force were no longer necessary. See the B2 Spirit, also a very special simulation derived shape but streamlined.


> but because of the limits of computer simulation at the time

Is this true? I thought the low poly was that a curve always has an area whose norma vector points back to radar, where flat pieces (and their intersections) only do if they're perpendicular to the radar. So, unless you're unlucky enough to have one plate shining pointing back at the radar, the reflection is completely broken up, with the small corners being too small to effectively reflect radar wavelengths back.

Or, maybe I'm just having trouble visualizing a smooth surface geometry that also has few normals back? I naively assumed the "smooth" planes were enabled by better absorption materials, rather than geometry. Maybe a mix?


> Or, maybe I'm just having trouble visualizing a smooth surface geometry that also has few normals back? I naively assumed the "smooth" planes were enabled by better absorption materials, rather than geometry. Maybe a mix?

You're not wrong. From a head-on perspective, especially from below, you'll find few if any curves. Newer stealth planes look curvier because photographs are often taken from above where the canopy is prominent, and where the top of the body and wings have some curvature. But look more closely. Even from above, the curves you see are usually on the trailing portion of surfaces or facing laterally; the leading edge of the wings on a B-2, F-22, or F-35 are actually flat and triangular, not at all like a typical diagram of an airfoil. This is especially true of the F-22 and F-35--if you look very closely, they're far more angular from more perspectives than the older B-2. The B-2 looks curvier from below, but the flying wing design isn't a coincidence; and I believe the B-2 also relies more heavily on radar absorbing skin than later aircraft, which rely more on simple geometry much like the F-117.

Moreover, beneath the skin of these planes it's widely believed that the framing uses sawtooth and other similar polygonal patterns you'd expect, a mitigation for radar that passes through the skin. And I would think that part of the engineering of these aircraft leverages radar transparent skin in some areas, not just absorbant skin, similar to a nose cone holding a radar.

Here's a really amazing slide presentation on the basics of stealth design: https://understandingairplanes.com/Stealth-Airplane-Design.p... (I first came across that document via an HN post several years ago.)


Thanks for the presentation. At the end there is a list of books by the presenter (who works at Boeing as structural engineer):

- Lockheed Stealth by Bill Sweetman

- America's Stealth Fighers and Bombers by James C. Goodall

- Stealth Technology by J. Jones

- Stealth Warplanes by Dough Richardson

- The Radar Game: Understanding Stealth and Aircraft Survivability by Rebecca Grant

- Skunk Works by Ben R. Rich

And by Bill Sweetman

- Inside the Stealth Bomber

- Joint Strike Figher

- F-22 Raptor

There is also a good playlist on youtube covering some of the topics:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfIy3BUXB3vLu1ZZz9bQb...


That's a great PDf. And in ~20-30 years I'll be really interested to know if the b2 did have active RF countermeasures.


Absolutely true that the faceted shape was due to computational limits at the time. There is a book detailing the development process for the shape of the F-117, but I can't remember the title. Anybody?

Anyway, the basic principle of stealth design is not what people intuitively think. As I recall, it has more to do with refraction along edges than reflection from surfaces. It was originally figured out by some Russian guy. I think that story was also in the book I can't remember.


Skunk Works by Ben Rich? Haven't read it yet though so can't confirm.


I've read it and this is the book. It tlis a fascinating read and I recommend it.


Yes. I read it based on a recommendation on HN, and it was very interesting. Not as good as "The Soul of A New Machine", but still quite worthwhile.


I actually liked it better because they produced multiple successes in skunk works. Soul of a new machine feels like they burned out making a middle of the road product.


I think we are evaluating on different criteria. Soul of a New Machine is a much better written book.


The Ben Rich book is good, but the one I was thinking of, which covers technical details of stealth technology, is Peter Westwick (2020) Stealth: The Secret Contest to Invent Invisible Aircraft. It is really very good.


  > maybe I'm just having trouble visualizing a smooth surface geometry that also has few normals back?
Just look at the B-2 Spirit and B-21 Raider.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_Grumman_B-2_Spirit

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_Grumman_B-21_Raider

The interface where the top and bottom meet (ie the only surfaces normal to the horizon, since they intentionally deleted vertical control surfaces) have relatively sharp edges and curvatures.

Curves are okay, as long as you plan them correctly. The tighter the curve the smaller the radar return. After all, the F-117's corners are (in the limit) just curves with a very tight radius.

The other trick is that (when viewed from the top) all the lines along the perimeter are parallel. That means there are only ~4 azimuth angles where the edges are presented 'face on' to an observer. At all other azimuth angles the radar return will glance off the (importantly, singly-curved) outer edge, bouncing the return signal away from the radar.

Presumably they'll plan flight paths such that these four relatively high-observability vectors will "sweep past" known radar installations rapidly, ideally while the plane is making a turn. All the radar sees is a small, extremely brief blip, which could well be discarded as a bogus radar return (either automatically or by human operators).

No insider information of course, just looking at the shape and applying geometric reasoning.


I have vague memories of reading about the coating on F-117. It was supposed to be multiple layers of epoxy paint with suspended ferrous particles, each layer cured under a different magnetic field to align them. To re-coat, the plane would have to be disassembled. The effect they wanted is most likely cancellation, analogous to anti-reflective coatings on glass. Idk.

Furthermore, I have seen pictures of F22 with brown rust stains on panels that should not have any steel in them.


Here are some bits about the paint etc. from a War Zone article about sending a retired pre-production model to a museum.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/4729/the-toxic-death-p...


I memory about this is rusty, but there was A LOT going on with this stealth tech. I vaguely remember color being important, too. The earlier (and stealthier!) designs had a camouflage look rather than black. But this looked "ugly". So they changed it. I think advancements in materials made this moot.


The story on the color is actually simpler. They had put a lot of effort into designing a camouflage pattern for it and there was still some debate over the final design. The project manager from the Pentagon heard about it and said, "This thing is only going to fly at night, right? So just paint it black and be done with it."


When practically bumps up against design dreams lol


You have the advantage of seeing the successor tech. Nothing later of 117 uses the 'big poly' design, with B-2 as an immidiate successor and F-22/35 as a years later one.

There would be always a question why did they chose a flying iron design, but efficency clearly states it's not needed.


For all we know, there could be low poly panels under an RF transparent skin. The "efficiency" could be purely aerodynamic.


I had never considered that the Northrop YB-49 [1] might have ultimately worked if computer simulation had been available at the time.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_YB-49


Another key requirement would have been computer-aided flight control systems. The only reason the B-2 can remain stable during maneuvers is thanks to its fly-by-wire system that translates the pilot's directions into control surface adjustments that achieve the desired results, and continually adjust those controls faster than the human pilot can react.


The curious may find this wikipedia article a good jumping point down this rabbit hole:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relaxed_stability


My favorite is the Grumman X-29: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grumman_X-29 (It worked and they built two, I think) but ultimately a dead-end.


Saw these fly over my high school back when I lived in Ohio (close to Wright Pat AFB)


> The design used those big low poly triangles not because it’s optimal (aerodynamically, very much not!)

It was so bad, they called it The Hopeless Diamond. To keep it in the air instead of dropping like a stone, flight computers had to be developed. Another stepping stone for the B2 which faced similar challenges.


It’s always confused me, under the radar absorbent material is stuff like engines, cockpits, and other reflective material. I’ve always wondered if under the smooth aerodynamic shape was a polygon frame covered in carbon fiber. That way the polygons could reflect radar away from the more reflective parts.


I've heard this but can't remember the name of the book!

Does anyone know?


Skunk Works, by Ben Rich. It's a classic, and the origin of my own fascination with the A-12/SR-71, and the F-117.


It's an exceptionally flexible and convenient method of control.

Earlier this year, donors to the truck convey protest in Canada had their bank accounts frozen. This wasn't a targeted list of "these 37 people have broken a law"--rather, it was a broad mandate to freeze accounts assocated with the protests, operationalized a bit differently by each bank.

In a society where most businesses don't take cash anymore, this turnkey coercive capability becomes more airtight.

The frog will boil slowly. A few years ago, all US payment processors blocked donations to Wikileaks, after they reported on war crimes in Iraq. Today, most people still think of digital money in the same way as physical cash; in reality, every transaction is a request for permission, with fraud heuristics and blocklists that might say yes or no.

Soon, a guy gets DUI, loses the ability to buy alcohol for six months--who would oppose that? Over time, the scope and frequency of financial deplatforminig will expand. Twitter does one-week suspensions for violating their terms of service. Why not your credit card?



And that is something that I hope Canada has a moral reckoning with, that's absolutely astounding to me.

Cash doesn't prevent this entirely though, unless you have all your cash under a mattress.


> Cash doesn't prevent this entirely though

Yes, but it's "not being able to buy a car" vs "not being able to buy bread".


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