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As you see in the article, this is a mathematical model which indicates vaccines saved 20,000,000 lives. It is completely unprovable and only serves as a nice sounding talking point.

I also could claim 20,000,000 lives were saved by natural immunity. Or vitamin D from sunshine. Or the placebo effect.

All of those mentioned are also not provable.


Do you have specific reasons not to believe the model and/or data in that article, beyond "all models are wrong by definition"?


A model is a prediction, nothing more. It can be a correct prediction but only after being verified by comparison with reality.


Show where this model disagrees with reality.


The problem is there is no way to accurately tell if the vaccine saved a single life, let alone 20 million


"It is completely unprovable"

You have no idea what you are talking about or how empiricism works. It's laughable.

The best data in the world tells us that 20 million lives were saved. Saying "No it didn't" is not an impressive or persuasive response.


Prove it then... not even the 20 million but just a single death saved because of the vaccine. You cannot. It's not a rip on you, nobody can. Hence it's not provable.

If anyone could, they would have already and wouldn't have to resort to nonsense theoretical computer models.

VERY interested in your attempt though gets out popcorn


Yes, asking questions is now enough to get you labeled a conspiracy nut job.

That toddler who continuously asks "why?" ten times in a row - conspiracy crank!!!


>That toddler who continuously asks "why?" ten times in a row - conspiracy crank!!!

Well if the toddler is asking questions about the lab leak hypothesis...

I explicitly said it is a generally acceptable approach that doesn't work on this specific topic because of the reasons listed.


Please give us a complete list of the topics about which we are no longer allowed to ask questions.


Where did I say you can't ask questions? I said asking questions is a bad rhetorical device to use on this topic. OP isn't an inquisitive mind looking for answers to those questions. They are trying to convince us of a particular viewpoint due to the implied answers to those questions.


Please give us a comprehensive list of topics for which asking questions is a bad rhetorical device. I'd like to understand the basis for your claim, and how you presume to know what's in OP's mind?


>Please give us a comprehensive list of topics for which asking questions is a bad rhetorical device.

There is no complete list. Topics exist on a spectrum and some are completely poisoned by conspiracy thinking. If some anonymous person on the internet asks "how many people really died during the Holocaust?" I am going to assume bad faith before I assume honest knowledge seeking. Covid deniers aren't that extreme, but they have certainly gotten to a point in which I view rhetorical questions with skepticism.

>I'd like to understand the basis for your claim, and how you presume to know what's in OP's mind?

I don't have to "presume to know what's in OP's mind" in terms of those questions. They told us. They said "If you don't admit these (now-obvious) facts". They are obviously using the questions rhetorically.

My underlying point is in fact that I can't read OP's mind in regard to their motivation. That is what makes this a bad rhetorical device. It is guilty of bad faith through association. If OP's intent is for a good faith discussion, they should have used a different rhetorical style to avoid that association.

And once again, this is not an argument about whether OP's original point was correct or not. That isn't what the comments I was replying to were discussing and it isn't what I said in any of my comments.


>Having a global pandemic led to the urgency to adapt them to human conditions where they have saved millions of lives

They've been trying for 10 years to get approval for human use. COVID was just the battering ram used to get them authorized for emergency use.

And your last point on saving millions of lives is complete speculation which is unknowable and unprovable. I can just as easily make the claim that cross reactive immunity from a precious Coronaviris infection saved millions of lives.


Did you mean Liberals on that 2nd to last sentence?


Excuse me sir, your deeply authoritarian side is showing.

It comes down to this: your collectivism ends where my individualism begins. Can you compel me to take an unwanted vaccine against my will? You can't? It's still my choice? Then kiss my ass.


The previous average vaccine testing duration was ~5 years. Let's not pretend that the mRNA vaccines were even close to that.

Fun fact, the Omicron BA.5 booster isn't tested at all.


You can amass 1000 person-years of testing with 10 subjects and 100 years, or with 1000 subjects and 1 year. Or with some intermediate ramp-up plan.

The "decades of public use" metric needs to also take into account how widespread that use is.

Now consider how many doses of mRNA vaccines have been given worldwide (1), since the public rollouts began in December 2020. mRNA vaccines are no longer unknown, at all.

1) Billions of doses https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/covid-vaccine-tracker-glo...


This is absolutely glorious. I'm rooting for you two.


Thank you for the kind words!


Oh absolutely settling was safest for GSK.

They settled to silence anyone that had adverse events and made them sign non disclosure agreements as part of the payout.

I trust the FDA as far as I can throw them. Suspected they were dirty for a long time and COVID proved it. To me they are an arm of the pharmaceutical industry which does everything in its power to suppress and sanction alternative medicine. Big pharma considers anything other than drug interventions or vaccines "competition".


Why do people feel compelled to mislead others with something so important. Especially today after everything that happened with the COVID-19 vaccines.

There were adverse events. There were no serious adverse events (SAEs).


Does it do anything against Babesia, Anaplasma, Bartonella, Erlichia, Epstein Barr Virus, HHV-6, Mycoplasma Fermentans, Mycoplasma pneumoniae, Chlamidia trachomatis, Yersinia enterocolitica or any of the other known Lyme coinfections?


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