I hadn’t heard the word countersignaling before, but it matches something I had observed many years ago.
My closest groups of friends always make so much fun of each other. We make negative comments about the worst traits about each other, the things that we are most self-conscious about… yet every time my friends make fun of me for something I worry about, I actually feel better and more comfortable with myself.
When I thought about why, I realized it’s because of the hidden message behind the ridicule of my longtime friends; they are telling me, “we are keenly aware of the worst qualities about you, and we love you and want to spend time with you anyway.”
There is comfort in knowing you don’t have to hide your flaws to be accepted and loved.
I wish I could find the original source on this, but I remember reading a tweet or blog that I thought had a really good metaphor for this kind of "male friend ribbing."
The metaphor went something like this: men making fun of each other are actuall y showing that they understand their friends deeply, because they know how to stab without hitting an organ.
That is - in order to make fun of someone without actually hurting them, you have to know which kinds of topics not to touch for any given friend. You skip the "your mom" joke for the friend with parent issues, and so on.
On the other hand, though, I have very often see my fellow enginerd types badly misread this dynamic. I've seen guys come onto an established team where some mutual teasing has evolved, then fall flat when they try to emulate that it - because they haven't yet earned the depth of relationship that makes it OK.
It kind of reminds me of another "nerd social fallacy" I've often observed, which I guess I'd name: "I can't be a bully." I think a lot of times people who've grown up dealing with bullying don't realize when they've become one. Sometimes the mutual teasing degrades into one guy just being a dick to the other.
Only some kind of men behave like that. I had many friends growing up and we never did that sort of thing, and it always put me off to see people who did.
Yeah I think in America it's a pretty distinctly East Coast thing. I grew up in Southern California and had to travel a lot for work, and it was super obvious when I traveled to the East Coast and went out drinking with coworkers that I didn't have those banter/shit-talking muscles trained, because nobody in my circles social circles ever really treated each other that way.
They never directed any of it at me because they were emotionally intelligent people, but even so, I did find it kind of annoying and off-putting - it was just a legitimate cultural difference.
By definition, if you don't like to experience it; don't like to witness it, it's not 'ribbing': it's bullying. It's crucial that the person being ribbed is part of the joke, and should be obvious.
It's very common for people to engage in the bullying, thinking that they are just ribbing; perhaps, never having experienced the safety that is required for ribbing.
There's also the common experience of a bully who always retreats to the defense of "I'm just ribbing you, why are you so defensive?" anytime they're challenged. Making the victim feel like they're the problem.
This is the case for so many things, though. Some people try to be funny but aren’t. Some people think they know how to drive safely but can’t. Some people think they are great programmers but aren’t.
This doesn’t mean that there aren’t funny people, or safe drivers, or great programmers. It also doesn’t mean that it’s impossible to KNOW you are funny, safe, or great at something.
It is a bit of a paradox, though, that right and wrong people can be equally certain.
If you cause a car wreck, you failed at driving. It doesn't necessarily make you a bad driver in and of itself - everybody makes mistakes - but if you also refuse to acknowledge and own your error then that certainly suggests a lack of competence.
If you ship code that blows up in production, you failed at programming. It doesn't necessarily make you a bad programmer in and of itself - everybody makes mistakes - but if you also refuse to acknowledge and own your error then that certainly suggests a lack of competence.
If you tell a joke that lands disastrously, you failed at comedy. It doesn't necessarily make you a bad comedian in and of itself - everybody makes mistakes - but if you also refuse to acknowledge and own your error then that certainly suggests a lack of competence.
I still don't understand why, for many people, that last point is so much harder to understand than the first two.
I mostly agree but I think the nuance with comedy is that there can be a mismatch in audiences, sometimes the others participating are not the intended audience, but are instead used as props. In that case it could be successful comedy independently of if they enjoyed it. Whether or not that’s ethical in a given situation is a separate question.
I think sometimes you get a mismatch between the audience the person thinks they have, and the audience they actually have.
For example, if you make a public post on social media, your actual audience is effectively the whole world. If you wanted a smaller audience, you should not have chosen a public post on social media as your venue.
I have many friends who I don’t do this with, because I know they don’t like it and it doesn’t work with them. I show my friendship to them by understanding the type of person they are and knowing that friendly ribbing is not for them.
Would you mind being friends with someone like me? Or do you feel like engaging in that behavior at all, even if not directed at you, is enough to make you not want to be friends with them?
Aww, that was sweet, the opposite of bullying or ribbing. I guess for some people it's too sweet for their taste/culture/personality, they're more used to the "mean kind of nice". I prefer the straight up kind of nice, like this, where I don't have to be on my feet for getting attacked. Writing this out, I see similarities with "play fighting" among cats or dogs.
Not the person you asked, but I think it comes down to past experiences/family environment/etc. Theres poking fun at someone to signal "i like you anyway"... that is real. There's also people who cross the line with their words, and use "i was just joking" as an excuse to be cruel.
If someone has experienced a lot of the later, it makes sense that they don't really trust the former.
Not OP. It's not about the words or the intentions, it's about the fact that we can talk about anything in the world, do any activity together, and you want to do something I'm not comfortable with.
That said, I understand relationships are about give and take. I couldn't be in a romantic relationship like this, but I'll indulge my friends or my cousins. I have a friend who engages in "countersignaling" often. Our connection is generally worth the uncomfortableness, but sometimes it is unbearable.
With age Ive found myself much more comfortable with folks "being mean, but in a friendly way" as they intend it. When I was younger though, I never understood why folks didn't instead just "say the nice part." Like, if your friends are always glad you join them even if you're always late, making fun of you for being late with a big smile can still feel pretty bad for you. Much better to say "hey please don't be late" and also "we really enjoy you spending time with us."
With age Ive come to see that for reasons I don't understand, lots of folks have a massive aversion to saying clearly the things they appreciate about the people around them directly. Eh, their loss.
I think there's a bit more to it than that. Being mean in a friendly way is sort of a sport, for some people finding a good quip is about the mental challenge of wordsmithing. It's easy, and not all that creative, to say "don't be late" and also with certain people can come across more negatively than just jokingly berating them, believe it or not. It sounds more serious. Something like, "glad you made it, Leland! We were just posting a GoFundMe to buy you a watch." Said in the right way with people you are very familiar with keeps a lighter tone, and less like I'm actually upset (even if I may be.) Not that I'd ever say something like that in a professional setting or to people I'm not actually strong friends with; those people just get a "glad you made it, Leland!"
It's also sort of the same reason shows like It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia are funny. When you're jokingly mean to a friend, you're being a bit of a caricature, an exaggeration. That's part of the fun of it, too. And why it can get a point across while keeping it light.
It's two different kinds of logic. The stereotypically male way makes sense to me: you take the weapons that could be used against someone and make them harmless. If you're fat, your friends call you fat, and you're like, hey, they know I'm fat, it's established that I'm fat, and they're my friends anyway! Being fat is fine! It takes all the fear out of it.
In my perception, the stereotypically female way is, if you're fat, nobody calls you fat. They're careful using the word around you. They might even tell you you're not fat. To me, that makes it seem like the friendship depends on the obvious lie that you're not fat, which makes it seem inevitable that it's going to end. One day they're going to make some acknowledgment of the evident truth that you're fat, and that's your signal that they're done with you and the friendship is over. To me, it feels like the truth is being kept in reserve for the day when they're going to shank you with it.
That's my (male) perspective. I'd rather have friends who acknowledge the truth about me and make me feel okay about it than friends who act like the truth about me isn't compatible with friendship and inclusion.
On an intellectual level, I get the (stereotypically) female perspective, too -- I get that it doesn't seem friendly to constantly remind someone of their shortcomings, and that a friend group should give someone an escape from oppressive social perceptions. But that doesn't resonate with me as much emotionally.
I have seen men say nasty things they absolutely meant and bond by bullying other people. That dynamic is actually very common among men. You literally see it in male only social groups (such as army or prison) where bullying someone is how guys show in group membership.
You also see men say nice things they dont mean ... frequently to a women they then badmount or mock behind their backs.
Eh... if you're fat, and your friends call you fat, they mean it. You're fat.
They just don't mean for it to hurt, and that's the wholesome part. Every time they call you fat, they're showing you that it's okay with them that you're fat.
If you're fat, and your friends tell you you're not fat, then to me that implies that the truth is too awful to say, but for your sake they'll pretend you're a different person. Which to me seems like it really underscores that it's not actually okay to be the way you are.
Recently a lady was telling me that she wasn't taken seriously. When a male colleague proposed something that she proposed years ago, people suddenly accepted it, she said. I explained her about 'implicit pecking order' in company culture and 'he is taller'. Then she said "yeah i'm short". Then I said yes but you are perfect the way you are, and I think she appreciated that.
There's bias in _every_ company, every culture even. The bias is towards age, race, height, beauty, weight, as well as gender. I live in one of the most inclusive countries in the world and work for a very inclusive company. Still, pecking order and biases exist. I think it is human nature and maybe it is fine even.
there are so many potential confounders in that story that might influence why the proposal was accepted. maybe his co-worker just proposed it too early and no one was ready for it?
I haven't looked at this topic this way, but now this really does make sense! I remember a lady asking me once how tall I am. I'm rather tall and in fact I don't like being asked that, since it is obvious that I am tall and the actual number does not matter. I responded with my height and immediately asked: what is your weight? Wrong question. In my male brain it was an equal kind of question. In the female brain totally not.
Probably because it's a completely unrelated question. Height and weight are only similar in that they're both descriptors of something physical. That's... pretty much it. Height is basically immutable. More of it is not bad. Less of it is not bad. It's not particularly reflective of lifestyle outside of simply not being malnourished. It's just... there.
Weight, obviously, is nothing like this. It absolutely comes off like you're trying to be snarky.
Same goes for how men are comforting each other by acknowledging flaws/mistakes/situation to try to help move on.
Which is very different on how women comfort each other.
It's a stereotype that women are directly mean to other women more than men are mean to other men. No idea if there is any data to back that up, only that it's a commonly repeated meme.
There's also culture at play. I don't know if men affectionately dissing their friends is universal but there's plenty of related things like:
In Japanese culture you don't brag about co-workers or family to outsiders. Outsiders you treat with respect. Insiders you don't. The fact that you don't get the more polite treatment is proof that you're an insider. It's a common scene in stories where someone asks to stop being treated like an outsider by specifically asking for the less polite language. You can also watch the ribbing man to man, man to woman, woman to man, woman to woman. I don't know if there is data on which is more common.
the stereotype is also that when men don't like each other they'll just get into a fight once and move on whereas when women don't like each other they'll tear each other down in extended social and psychological campaigns
yes, but of course the "pecking order" is more complicated than that. oftentimes the victor (the "alpha") gains respect for his (defeated) opponent for having the balls to challenge him and is thereby far more liable to include him in matters of importance
fighters tend to respect fighters if they fight a clean fight
I know both kinds of people, men, women and kids. Its a thing that is nurtured across generations and different for each family and not that much gender-specific.
There's a fine line between teasing, which can build up a person, and degradation designed to destroy self esteem. It's also easy to dismiss that degradation as "I'm just teasing. You're too sensitive. "
I don’t find it very gendered, my sister and I used to do this often, like young wolf pups, we’d jostle and play for the upper hand.
I have women friends who will play like this with me. It can reveal insights that neither of us were clear on without the other bringing it to light.
Of course it can be one sided too, and it turns into bullying. I think context matters and even if you’re being bullied, it’s still revealing if you are able to see beyond the emotion. You’re not your looks, your body, your mind, your bank account, your friend group, etc… Your worth is beyond these things. I hope you find that someday!
> it can be one sided too, and it turns into bullying
That's pretty insightful. I've had some friends I would tease and some I would never tease. People are different and relationships change over time. There's no one way to be with everybody all the time.
It may be common in many places, but it is also a great filtering mechanism for envy. People who belittle others for fun feel a need to project some kind of social status above others. It’s toxic behavior because it can grow.
I seek out the social groups where people try to help eachother and where most of the conversation is towards pushing a common goal or helping each other’s pursuits. That way someone saying something negative is a signal, and the negative can be addressed. You can only move fast and in the right direction with clear signaling. If the signal is diluted by people with low self esteem who would rather belittle those who do than do the doing, then you need to clear the signal.
I think that's because when women do it, they are usually being intentionally cruel. Any woman will tell you how cruel teenage girls are to each other.
I would point out that male on male bullying absolutely exists. Sometimes were sever one. It also frequently involves mocking the other guy and no it is not friendly.
Sometimes those women are actually making very accurate observation about relationships of involved guys.
It is not exactly rare when "it was just a joke" is entirely dishonest and when went on was actually attempt to put down another guy.
That's astute. I was always uncomfortable with this kind of joking. I felt threatened. The real reason was that I didn't have a good comeback.
Let's say my nose was large, and a friend jokes about it. I need to say something back. And I could not think of anything. A low stakes situation becomes higher stakes than it needs to be.
So on their side they see me struggle and probably feel bad, so they don't do it again. But then we are just friends not best friends.
I don’t know if I have a clear answer to how I learned and practiced this. Probably a lot of simple exposure and observation. The important thing is the friendship comes first; I never make an insult joke to someone I don’t know well. I build a friendship first, then test out the waters with small jokes.
I also always start and focus on myself; I make jokes at my own expense often. A big part of my personality is a strange juxtaposition of bravado and self deprecation. I will joke about how amazing I am and how much of a failure I am at the same time.
It seems to work? I think people like me, generally? I don’t know man, I just wing it! I have no idea what I am doing, but I am also pretty great at not knowing what I am doing.
I've identified two approaches to this situation. One is to take the insult graciously, as though it's feedback:
"Careful: you could put someone's eye out with that!"
"Oh! Thanks for the reminder." (adjust the position of your head, as appropriate for your extremely large and dangerous nose)
---
The other is to take whatever they said, and exaggerate it. This produces really good comebacks. (It's important to insist upon this point, regardless of any evidence you might receive to the contrary.)
"Careful: you could put someone's eye out with that!"
"Oh, could I? Well, your entire face is bad."
If they respond with another insult, repeat the same strategy. They'll notice what you're doing after the second or third attempt, and then it will turn from "this person's bad at comebacks" into "this person's (pretending to be) bad at comebacks and it's funny".
"My face is bad? Is that the best you could come up with?"
"Your face is so bad that it makes everyone else's faces bad, too."
"But… that means your face is also bad."
"And whose fault is that? It's your fault. Specifically, the fault of your face. Which is bad."
"Still means you've got a big nose."
"Well you've got a small nose."
"No I don't. We've got the same sized noses."
"Thus invalidating your previous aspersion that my nose is unusually large. Who's bad at comebacks now?"
"Still you."
---
There's a third approach, if the insult is disguised as faux-concern: pretend you're taking it seriously, while exaggerating the characteristic they're concerned about.
"Hey, you having trouble seeing past that, mate?"
"Oh, no, it's alright: most of my vision is unobstructed." / "I've got some tape in my bag if I need it." / "It's no worse than binoculars."
In case anyone is out of the loop, these are both lines from an eminently quotable Seinfeld episode (The Comeback, S8E13) that perfectly encapsulates the concept of l'esprit d'escalier, which I’m not sure has a direct English translation in common terms, but is a sort of loan word in my parlance, but I’ll admit I have studied French in secondary school.
> L'esprit de l'escalier or l'esprit d'escalier (lit. 'staircase wit') is a French term used in English for the predicament of thinking of the perfect reply too late.
Now that Curb Your Enthusiasm has wrapped, I could go for a rewatch of Seinfeld, as I can’t think of a better coda to Curb than a return to the roots from which Larry David’s own show sprang.
Hope springs eternal, and both Seinfeld and Curb are wry reminders that every silver lining has its cloud. I’ll take the rain.
> Oh, could I? Well, your entire face is bad."
> If they respond with another insult
I seriously doubt they will. “Your entire face is bad” sounds like lashing out from a place of hurt. Typical response would probably be a confused or disgusted look followed by a change of topic.
There are not a lot of people who could pull this kind of response off without coming off extremely weird or like assholes. And none of the people who could pull this off successfully are asking for comeback advice on Hacker News.
> “Your entire face is bad” sounds like lashing out from a place of hurt.
Childlore isn't well documented online, but in my part of the world, "your face" was the orphan-friendly equivalent of "your mom". It is well-understood to be an extremely bad comeback in the circles I frequent: I've not known anyone to misunderstand it. Your mileage may, of course, vary.
Yeah but also no. This feels a like bit like “just be charismatic”. Someone asking how to respond to this sort of playful insult is unlikely to pull this off in any natural way.
I would think a better response for someone who does not know how to naturally respond to these sorts of playful insults would be to just absorb it goodnaturedly. “Haha, yep. I get this big nose from my dad.” Instead of continuing banter that is awkward, end it in a friendly way and move on.
dpark's caveat (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45467182) applies here as well: there's a big difference between "fuck off" and "fuck off", and someone inexperienced in such conversations probably won't hit the right tone. (Especially if they've just come out of "oh no I can't think of a comeback" and are a bit stressed.)
when i dont have a comeback i simply say, "oh no ive been owned" or something similar. the toxic male environment social equivalent of brushing yourself off and standing back up. lets them get whatever they needed from the exchange but also signals theyre not going to get a big reaction from you if they happen to be 100% bully
Can I float an adjacent idea? It collapses the anxiety by simply forcing the thing your anxious about to be over. I've definitely had the experience you're describing where someone likes me despite something I'm insecure about. I've also had the experience where someone dislikes me precisely because of something I'm insecure about and tells me as much to my face. Both are better than not knowing.
The book Impro treats extensively of what it calls "status games", in the context of building believable, natural scenes of dialog for the stage (or other dramatic purposes) and as a framework for making improvisation interesting.
The author muses that the situation of feeling safe playing status games with another person—that is, treating them only as games, not as serious and with real status in play—is perhaps the definition of what friendship is.
This could include trading barbs, taking turns playing the bully and the victim, trading playing "high" and "low" roles, jokey one-upsmanship, that kind of thing. Stuff you don't do with non-friends because there's too much risk of being taken seriously, and too much risk of losing actual status or of hurting someone else's status for-real when you didn't intend to.
OMG. The section (and one central page) in that book about status is one of the most insightful and meaningful things I have ever read in my entire life!
Once you recognize status transactions ... they are absolutely everywhere, in every single interaction.
I think this varies a lot depending on the person and the relationship. When I was younger, I couldn't put up with ribbing at all. I always took it as bullying. I still think very negatively of some of the people I was "friends" with at the time due to that.
On the other hand, I have ~3 friends I made as an adult that I have been talking to very frequently (with some, daily), for a decade or so, and there, any level of ribbing is fine.
I don't think it's about us knowing each other's worst qualities and being fine with it, as a lot of our banter is on things we can't change about ourselves. I think it's just a matter of trust.
It's a game that allies play in order to prepare for enemies.
When played with allies, it connects you to each other and lets you put your guard down (which is perverse to those that don't get it).
The same game played with an enemy teaches you to deflect rather than internalize bad-faith insults and teaches you to use wit and words to stand up for yourself, keeping your dignity without violence.
...
Also it's a demonstration of equality.
e.g. you can't play the game with your boss or your son, but you can play it with your brother and your peers.
My friend group from my school did the same thing, but I've always hated this pattern. Because of exactly this behavior, after finishing school I've decided to intentionally drop some contacts.
Maybe I've interpreted it as "I'm better than you, because you're doing X. I'm mentioning this over and over again, because it makes me feel better."
I once worked at a place where we all called each other “NERD.” One time a person outside the IT circle turned to us in the cafeteria and shouted, “What's up, NERDS?” There was complete silence in the room. I guess only a nerd can call another nerd a nerd.
True. Back in the day, the mates and I would greet each other by saying, "Hey, fuck you." Then, "No, fuck you.". You can kinda guess it eventually ping pongs louder and funnier. We kind of had to stop when other innocent people would pop in and ask if everything is "ok".
That may be an interpretation. Another is that many have difficulty regulating their feelings, and “venting” the discomfort in this semi-controlled manner is a socially acceptable release because it invites others to do the same to you, and you all minimize the risk of catastrophic attacks under tension.
Yes! I’ve noticed that when people struggle to manage their emotions, it often comes out in a kind of jabbing or teasing way. It’s usually not really about the other person, it’s more a reflection of their own insecurities. For example, the guy jabbing his friend for being short is probably not that tall himself and may feel insecure about it deep down. There could be some unprocessed feelings around it. The genuinely tall person usually couldn’t care less. The thought of making that jab doesn’t really even surface lol
Yeah, I don't know about that. I had many people in my life (including close friends and relatives) who continued to be abusive "it's just fun teasing" even after I asked them to stop.
They are no longer in my life. I don't miss them even a little bit!
This seems fairly culture-dependent, from my experience.
For instance, I've noticed a distinct difference in how sarcasm is received in the Northeast US vs the West Coast. What you described feels more Northeast-y to me (I'm sure it varies by other segments and sub-sub-cultures, too).
There's the saying: "If an Irish person calls you 'asshole,' it means they think you're a friend. If they call you 'friend' it means they think you're an asshole."
Ha that's funny. I'm from the Midwest and found my dry/sarcastic humor tended to confuse people on the West Coast. A lot of people tended to take me completely seriously when I was obviously joking.
I always chalked that up to being around people that were new to the country and hadn't yet wrapped their head around the latest fashionable American cynicism. Generally takes a few decades to kick in, but when it does it's usually worth the wait (see Kumail Ali Nanjiani).
> My closest groups of friends always make so much fun of each other. We make negative comments about the worst traits about each other
That sounds terrible. A candid conversation about our flaws is one thing. IME 'friends' who most often mock each other are just trying to elevate their status in the group, by pushing others down.
My closest groups of friends always make so much fun of each other. We make negative comments about the worst traits about each other, the things that we are most self-conscious about… yet every time my friends make fun of me for something I worry about, I actually feel better and more comfortable with myself.
When I thought about why, I realized it’s because of the hidden message behind the ridicule of my longtime friends; they are telling me, “we are keenly aware of the worst qualities about you, and we love you and want to spend time with you anyway.”
There is comfort in knowing you don’t have to hide your flaws to be accepted and loved.